Friday, May 07, 2010

Kong Hee & co. are into plagiarism?

The blogger of Cheat Grace alerted me to his blog two months ago. He/she has been compiling plagiarism evidences committed by Kong Hee, the founder and senior pastor of City Harvest Church, a mega-church with a congregation of over 30,000 members.

(Disclaimer: I don't have the published materials mentioned below, so I am depending on the blogger's reports. For this reason, I was hesitant to blog about this initially. However, what my clustermate told me yesterday motivates me to blog as a way to seek verification from those who have access to these materials.)

Most of the evidences are those from Kong Hee's web-based daily devotion. There are a few examples (post one, post two) taken from the Leadership Study Bible edited by Kenneth Boa, Sid Buzzell and Bill Perkins.

The blogger also reported that Kong Hee has plagiarized not only for his website but also in his own hard-copy publication: Renewing your Spiritual Life in 90 Days, Vol. 1. It appears that Kong Hee copied the devotional material for day 61 and day 89 from other sources without acknowledgment. What is irony is this printed statement on Kong Hee's book: "All rights reserved. No portion of this book may be reproduced in any form without the written permission, with the exception of brief excerpts in magazine reviews." Since I don't have a copy of this book, I hope my readers who have access to it able to verify the cited pages.

In our first semester at Trinity Theological College, we are required to attend a class titled 'Theological Study Skills'. Throughout the class, the lecturer, Andrew Peh, keep reiterating the severity of plagiarism. Taking another person's work and claiming it as your own is equivalent to stealing, coveting, bearing false witness, etc. Kong Hee who has a Doctorate in Theology from New Covenant International Theological Seminary should know this. Or perhaps that seminary, unlike Trinity Theological College, allows plagiarism.

Last night, one of my clustermates told us about a conference which he has attended. One of the speakers of the conference was the Caucasian pastor from City Harvest Church pastoral team. At the beginning of the speech, the Caucasian pastor told the attendees that what he was about to say on that day was revealed to him by God. Guess what? My clustermate recognize that his speech was copied entirely from one of Willow Creek Church's resources. As he was speaking on the stage, my clustermates was telling his fellow attendees seated besides him the subsequent points the Caucasian pastor was going to make. And my clustermate got them all right.

Is plagiarism a trend in City Harvest Church's pastorate?

54 comments:

Steven Sim said...

Or god inspired two different persons in different countries at the same time? I mean, we have the same god, so the "prophecies" can't differ much right? :D

Steven Sim

Israel Lee said...

One possibility is that Kong Hee did not have the time to write all the daily devotionals and assigned the task mostly to his staff. The staff involved could have copied or plagiarized it from other sources. Kong Hee in turn did not check this staff's work and presumed everything is alright. Nevertheless, even if this was the actual situation, Kong Hee is wrong to claim the writing of his staff as his own.

Sivin Kit said...

sigh

Cheat Grace said...

Also on the outside back cover of the book, the publishers claim, "With this devotional, Kong Hee brings the message of uncompromising faith into an easy-to-read, day-to-day format, SHARING HIS INSIGHTS FROM THE BIBLE in a balanced manner that is both practical and spiritual". Sharing HIS insights? Really? It would be nice if people reflected on Ex 20:7 & 17 once in a while

Guorong said...

Hi Sze Zeng,

What you wrote is interesting but much verification is needed.

Can you identify the conference, topic and points shared by the Caucasian pastor? Also, where the Willow Creek resources can be found?

Otherwise, the claim on the whole CHC pastorate is involved in plagarism is misleading and can be viewed as a slanderous remark. Do you know how many pastoral workers in the church and how sure are you that they do any of such thing....

A wise counsel to you: Get the facts on your fingertips before your initial posting...Otherwise, the related party will hold you accountable for you wrote.

Put it this way, if someone is accusing you of a mistake you made, would you demand the person to show evidences? How would you feel?

Also, on the purpose of posting online, is the posting edifying to the soul and spirit of readers?

For this posting, i dont find anything positive in it....

Sze Zeng said...

Hi Guorong,

Thank you for your comment. Do read my "Disclaimer" in the post as well as my constant request to have people verify them for me.

The post makes it clearly that there are some verified data and some which are waiting to be verified. And do also notice the title of the post actually ends with a "?" mark. Perhaps you missed reading the given title, the disclaimer and the request. They are there. You may read them again.

Guorong said...

Dear Sze Zeng,

That's exactly why i'm asking for details you heard from your clustermate on the Caucasian pst. So that we can verify with him....

In that case, we'll have a clearer picture of the Caucasian pst's mistake as well as whether the pastorate is linked to it...

I'm sure the pastoral team members in CHC would be interested to know whether they did anything wrong, as they're dragged into it.

After that, we'll have an answer to the question mark "?" you put in your title...And no vague statement in the posting anymore...

Sze Zeng said...

Hi Guorong,

The CHC publication bearing the senior pastor's name and declaring as having its own copyright while it is not is already a wrong. So the matter is not whether they did anything wrong. It's how many wrongs have they done? Do you see the difference?

By the way, are you part of the pastorate? If not how sure are you that they are interested to find out? And if they are, they can just ask the Caucasian pastor since he is around. If he said yes, then nothing more to ask. If he said no, then I'll ask my cluster-mate if he lied. So either the Caucasian pastor lied or my cluster-mate lied. Yet since the Caucasian pastor is still around and reachable, it is best to ask him to hear first hand what he says about this. One may start asking if did he use any of Willow Creek resources?

There is no vague statement in the post. I think every statements are clearly stated to their precise meaning.

Thank you for reply :-)

Israel Lee said...

Hi Guorong

You are contradicting yourself. First, you say that the post is interesting, but in the end, you say it has no positive value at all. In general, if you find something interesting, it has to have at least the slightest positive value of being 'engrossing'.

I will not discuss about the publication, but I know that there are at least two very recent daily devotional postings on CHC's website which have been copied from the blog of another pastor. Of course, we could say that the other pastor copied from CHC. Nevertheless, the content is freely available for you to check out yourself. Visit Cheap Grace's blog and you will find the links there.

Yes, I think exposing this is beneficial so that trust is not on man, but on God.

Guorong said...

Hi Israel,

I dont see any contradiction in my earlier post. Maybe you have a different definition of 'interesting' and 'positive'.

To me, interesting and positive are two different terms with different meaning.

Some books, cartoon, games, movies, stories, jokes can be interesting but does it always have a 'positive' element? People can be engrossed for many things, do u agree?

As mentioned in my earlier post, 'positive' to me will be something that is edifying to the spirit and soul of the reader, since we are in a christian and church context now.

And for this particular posting, i dont find any 'positive' element.

You are wise not to comment on the recent devotions as no verification is done and you dont know who copy who...I commend you for that :)



Thanks for your sharing...

Israel Lee said...

Dear Guorong

Concerning the devotions on CHC website, do note that the post appeared a year ago in the other pastor's website before it was published at CHC.

This happened just a few days ago. (CHC only posted the devotions on 7 and 8 May 2010) How do we know that the other pastor posted first? Google already has a cache of that post before CHC posted it as their own.

Guorong said...

Hi Sze Zeng,



Whether or not i'm in CHC, i' will leave it to your guessing. After all, this blog is public and accessible to all. The CHC pastoral team should read this since it's referring to them.



On the question of asking another person (be it CHC pastoral team or not) to verify with the Caucasian pst, the answer is a big 'NO'. No one except you have the responsibility to do so as the claim was posted by you in your blog. If i made a claim about another person, why should a third party step in to verify for the claimant? Shouldnt both party settle within themselves? It doesn’t make sense to me....



Let’s zero in to the claim against the Caucasian pst as there were no verifications and evidences found.



Mt 18: 15-17 talks about dealing with a fellow believer's mistake within Christian community. There is a very clear order here...



The first thing is to confront the person in private, then if he is not responsive, expose in public and show evidences or provide 2 or 3 witnesses to support your case.



This is clearly to safeguard all related parties, to make sure the accuser has got the right facts and to protect the reputation of both parties. Also, it is to make sure our motive is pure and out of love. This will help the person at fault to learn from mistake and move forward.



You should have double checked with the Caucasian pst first before you post the plagarism claims online in public. Since you have access to Ps Kong Hee’s personal information, you should be able to get CHC email.



Furthermore, you only heard the info from a cluster mate and not directly from Caucasian pst and there were no 2nd and 3rd witness to support (as in Mt 18: 16). In any case, if your source is not reliable for some reason (since all of us are not perfect), you will be in big trouble. This will be misleading to those who read your blog.



But your earlier reply seems to tell me that you haven’t done any verification other than your cluster mate and your disclaimer mentioned that you are still seeking verifications. I would take it as you are not 100% sure about the facts.

Shouldn't verifications be done with the related party in private?



Also, in your earlier reply, you mentioned there's a "?" in your title, does it imply that you are guessing or directing a question to the readers and not implying that the CHC pastorate are into plagarism?



Again, if seeking verification is the main purpose of this post, then the correct way is to verify with the church or person involved in private, right?



Just because cheap grace have evidences to should that Pst Kong devotion can be found in other sources doesn’t mean that the whole pastoral team should be dragged into it.

Let's give the Caucasian pst and pastoral team the benefit of doubt and channel our queries and concerns in a correct way.

Thanks....

Guorong said...

Dear Israel,

I'm replying to your latest post..

You might be right, that's why further verification is needed if this would to be published online for the public to read.

Thanks...

Sze Zeng said...

Hi Guorong,

Since I don't know whether are you from CHC pastorate team or not, I don't have the responsibility to be accountable to you at all, as this business has nothing to do with you, according to my awareness.

Concerning Mt 18.15-17, you posted your disagreement and concern on this public place already shows that you are not following it. You could have just emailed to me privately. Perhaps you want to measure on yourself first the standard you are using to measure other people?

Just a thought.

Guorong said...

Dear Sze Zeng,

I'm not against anyone and you are right, you are not accountable to me at all and i'm not writing for that reason.

Pls remember i made comments to urge you not to post anything public without verifications. My comments has got nothing to do with offense but the way of doing things orderly within the body of Christ. If i have offended you in any way, i apologise to you.

I made my comment public bcoz the first post was already made public and i certainly hope the ppl who read the post will be following this series of comments by us and have a balance view on this issue at hand.

Let's keep the unity within the body of Christ!

Thanks...

Sze Zeng said...

Hi Guorong,

Apology accepted.

In the same way, as you think that my post is already public therefore you just respond here publicly without following the text you quoted, Kong Hee's book and website devotional already published in the public with infringement issue. So I can also respond publicly to an issue which is already public in the same way as you are to give a balance view of Kong Hee's material.

The unity of Christ is not at stake with this case. Neither Kong Hee or I anathematize each other and call each other as non-Christian. This post is only raising an already public issue without calling each other as 'non-Christian'. It is more of a internal disciplinary issue rather than one which threatens the unity of the Church :-)

Guorong said...

Dear Sze Zeng,

In that case, i would expect you to post comments on the blog or sites were the devotions were published, so that those who read them will have a balanced view there and then. I dont think the readers who read the devotions will be directed to your blog...

Of course, you are free to comments in the related sites but pls make sure it's substantiated by evidences.

Another thing, for the claims on the Caucasian pst, it is still vague and leave the readers of your blog guessing and might draw conclusion which is bias and unpleasant to the Caucasian pst and CHC pastoral team.

Your cluster mate who had attended the conference should know the name of the Caucasian pst, the content he preached and the Willow Creek resources he quoted.

If all this information is not published in your blog, there will be hints of the Caucasian pst did something wrong and there's no basis for him to clarify himself to you and your readers. This is unfair to him right? That's why it will become slanderous and we dont want that to happen.

I certainly hope that you are a responsible blogger and provide the details for the readers.

Well, there's possibility that your cluster mate would understood and perceived in a way not intended by the Caucasian pst.

If information as name, conference, quotes are published along with your remarks, all who have doubt could verify with CHC or the pst involved but now we're just left with guessing.

If you were the Caucasian pst, would you appreciate the claims againt you are supported by details?

thanks..

Sze Zeng said...

Hi Guorong,

As I have said, I am under no obligation to be accountable to you. So I don't have to respond to you request. In fact I am not even obliged to publish your comment.

If you feel so desperate to want me to comment on Kong Hee's blog, you may copy and paste my post on his site :-)

Cheat Grace said...

Israel, it cannot be disputed that Kong Hee has plagiarised and infringed on the copyright of at least three articles.

One, the first two paragraphs of his 'Thomas-faith' article is copied word for word from the profile on Thomas in the Leadership Bible. The photos of the original article and screenshots of KH's article is clearly seen here. No fakery unless i am a photoshop wiz :)

Second, the original article of KH's article "Secure in Yourself" is also found in the Leadership Bible. The original article is called "Servant Leadership" The photos and screenshots clearly show the KH's article is a word-for-word copy. http://cheatgrace.blogspot.com/2010/03/megachurch.html

As for KH's article "Gift of Encouragement" http://cheatgrace.blogspot.com/2010/03/3rd-example-of-cheatgrace-pastyors.html it is not only found in The Leadership Bible but also Kenneth Boa's book "The Perfect Leader". The book is found in the TTC Library and I posted its library number earlier. Its nice of TTC to make their library available online. Kenneth Boa and Sid Buzzell were original editors of The Leadership Bible and I am sure they have retained the copyright of their articles. So its not just plagiarism but also infringement of copyright.

As for the other articles I posted, I have included their original weblinks so that from the setting of the original articles, readers can discern for themselves who copy from who. No one needs to blindly accept my take, just read and reason with logic.

Cheat Grace said...

Its seems that Guorong is majoring on the minors. He has not commented anything about the posts that is on the cheatgrace blog. The majority of Zeng's article is about KH's "alleged" acts of plagiarism as found on the cheatgrace blog. Yet Guorong has chosen to focus only on Zeng's closing paragraph. WHY?

Always pay as much attention to the silence as you do to the noise because silence can mean consent.. or assent at the very least :)

reasonable said...

Thanks Cheap Grace and Sze Zeng for alerting us to the issue of plagiarism by some City Harvest folks.

reasonable said...

oops I mean thanks Cheat Grace

Cheat Grace said...

Interesting. Another article plagiarised from Neil Anderson devotional http://cheatgrace.blogspot.com/2010/05/wahhh-is-man-of-god-still-copying-see.html

Sze Zeng said...

Hi Cheat Grace,

Thank you for the update.. wow.. this guy is a bit er... well, can't stop plagiarizing.

Cheat Grace said...

And the 'good' pastor is writing talking about repentance in the devotional. I guess some people do not think of plagiarism as a sin. LOL

Daughter Of Sarah said...

Thanks for taking time to write this post. It has been an eye-opening read. Whilst I know that no one is perfect and praise God for the grace of our LORD Jesus Christ, it is important IMHO for Pastors to have some integrity... esp when you lead a huge congregation of sheep.

Daughter Of Sarah said...

Steven:

Whilst some people have argued that the HS imparts similar wisdoms to various pastors, preachers and leaders in the church, which I agree with, it gets a little dodgy in KH's case when it is an exact word for word phrasing.

I think most of us would agree that in a situation all of us will prob describe the same thing differently... Hence it is a little bit of a stretch to claim that paragraphs and pages of a book that are blatantly copied might be fully inspired by the HS. Even when the writers of the synoptic gospels wrote about an event that took place, Matthew, Mark and Luke described the same incident differently- showing different perspectives, using different phrasing and words.

reasonable said...

One popular online news website has reported this news about Kong Hee.

Please go to http://theonlinecitizen.com/2010/05/did-kong-hee-plagiarise/

Cheat Grace said...

DOSarah, if it was possible for HS to make two people come up with similar word for word revelation, then Bible Colleges can no more rule against their students for plagiarism :)

her royal highness said...

I couldn't help but leave my comment. Pastor Kong's articles on his blog were first published in the year 2005, when the devotionals were first distributed to his members. These devotionals were written years earlier than all the sites cited by cheatgrace. A shame Pastor Kong never copyright his material back then. I leave you to think what you wanna think.

Cheat Grace said...

Good try at legalism HRH. :) But actually the Leadership Bible was printed in 1998. So if you want to consider chronology as a basis, then KH must have copied his articles from here. The articles he copied from the Leadership Bible are also found in "Handbook to Leadership" and "The Perfect Leader" Authors of these books are Buzzell and Boa, original editors of the Leadership Bible. That is already infringement of copyright.

Funny how someone just use the same argument about written in 2005 in TOC's website. QUOTE: "the posts KH puts up on his blog are a regurgitation of his devotionals first distributed in the year 2005. A pity he didn’t copyright his material.

I leave you to think what you want to think. But its preferable for the church to send an official spokesman instead of foot soldies testing the waters

LOKE said...

Happened to come across this blog & is HRH saying that Boa copied KH?

Kenneth Boa (I presumed) authored or co-authored at least 50+ titles if not more... a seasoned well known writer and speaker and probably publisher from USA plagiarise? It's a very serious thing to plagiarise in USA and I don't think he (Boa) will.

After all, in his books, he's always giving credits to his sources and what is one more additional article if it's from KH.

Sign & Tsk Tsk...
Does one stand by the truth or a person / personality. Already, I can see the discerning spirit is lacking.

The least one can do is to look up info about Boa and make some educated comparison with KH and not jumped straight to insinuate that Boa copied to defend KH.

It's a worry and concern these days that sometimes truth are clouded out by the force of personality.

Cheat Grace said...

LOKE, its a reliving of the days described in Isa 5:20-21 "Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter. Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes and clever in their own sight."

Cheat Grace said...

Sze Zeng, Looks like your blog posting blew up a storm affter Terence took it another step higher. I would like to say kudos but I feel a bit sad to see how a man of God so high up can also in the end be a man of straw.

Anyway I presume you are going into 2nd year? May God shape you through the events now going on in your life.

"Truth is the thread that separates true spirituality from false spirituality... Your spirituality must be born of the truth and lived out in grace." The Grand Weaver, Ravi Zacharias

Sze Zeng said...

Hi everyone,

Apologize that I have not been able to reply to everyone's comment sooner. I have been on an 'exam-assignment-deadline' marathon for the past two weeks.

Thank you for everyone's comments :-)

Guorong, you asked me why is your comment not appearing? As I have said, I'm in no obligation to approve your comments. I appreciate your cause yet I have clarified this post enough. Perhaps later when I have more time I would write a post to further elaborate over Derek Dunn, the Caucasian pastor of CHC :-)

Daughter of Sarah, nice to meet you here. Yes, it is rather disheartening to see plagiarism happening. In my context in the academia, it is a very serious ethical offense.

Hi reasonable, thank you for informing me about the post at TOC :-)

Hi her royal highness, I think Cheat Grace and LOKE have responded to your comment. Unless Kong Hee comes out to clarify this issue, the case so far seems that he did plagiarize.

Cheat Grace, thank you for your work in compiling all these evidences. I am as disheartening when I got to know about this case. This definitely shape me in my approach in my future work. Yes, I'll be going into the 2nd year starting July. Oh, regarding your question on who was my OT lecturer, she is Dr Maggie Low. But please please don't let your impression of her being color solely by my comment on her. We have disagreement on certain theological and historical approach on certain subjects. Her disposition is a very caring and pastoral person. She was good in her class, always encouraging students to see things in the OT in a relevant and pastoral manner :-)

Sze Zeng said...

Sorry LOKE that I missed out you in my previous reply. Thank you for your thoughts. I share your doubt that Kenneth Boa and Neil Anderson copied from Kong Hee :-)

Ziq said...

Plagiarism is definitely wrong. But then I think those of us who are throwing stones at them are also wrong.

If the original owner of the content doesn't mind and is not pursuing the matter why are we so busy and worked up about it?

Leave it to the parties concerned or leaders to deal with it.

Daughter Of Sarah said...

Have you read in the newspaper yet? The authors have come forward to say they DID NOT GIVE KONG HEE PERMISSION to copy their works. That basically seals it then. Now it means he lied and thn lied again to cover up his lies. How can? I agree we need to act in grace and I have even asked Logical Christian to do so, but now that the truth has surfaced and is no longer a theory or suspicion, we also need to acknowledge the truth. Grace AND truth came from Jesus Christ. We need to administer grace but not deny that KH has indeed made a grave mistake here. There's still grace and I hope he comes clean with the CHCers. Leaders still have to be accountable.

Cheat Grace said...

D O S, Its over. KH already has the very serious police matter to handle. This copying matter will become inconsequential and a non-issue if we do not add any more demands of CHC or KH. Perhaps in his own time KH will seek our Lord and ask for the wisdom to address this matter in a Christ-honouring way. I am at peace to let the sovereignty of God take its course.

luo said...

Our God is a God of Love and also wrath. God hates sins and we should not trivilise sins as "mistakes'or 'oversights'.

As Christians our loyalty to God supercedes that to man. We are urged to do as the Bereans do, to search the scripture diligently to ensure that preachers adhere to sound doctrine.

Christ wants us to carry our cross and follow Him. We are not to bring worldly values into the church. Our hearts are wicked and deceitful. So often we even lie to ourselves to justify our sins.

May God forgive us, sinners.

Saved sinner

luo said...

Dear Sze Zeng
I recently came across your blog and I must congratulate you for the vast amount of work you have put in. Please allow me as an old academician to make a few general statements regarding serious academic writings. I am not at all accusing you of any wrong doings.

It is important to ensure integrity in what you write especially if it is put up for public viewing. We should not as Christians bear false witness. Our God is a God of truth not falsehood.
The burden of proof lies with the writer to ensure accuracy. It is not enough to say that I am just quoting someone for that someone may be wrong.
The other issue is more legal. Over the years I have seen friends who were sued because they made statements which they cannot substantiate and which were seen as libelous.
The internet is not without hazards. But most important as Christians we are accountable to God for our actions.

God willing, you will be blog for more years to come. I do look forward to reading the materials you put in your blog and also your sharing of your thoughts. My advice, if I may brother is that you tread carefully.

May the Lord bless you.

Cheat Grace said...

I guess he is referring to that copying Willow Creek comment. I have to admit that cannot be construed as fair comment. I felt a bit uneasy about it being made unless you have a copy of the recording. Be careful, people have warned me that some people can be like a tiger. When backed into a corner, they may turn on me.

May God's protection be on those who love him and his light

Sze Zeng said...

Hi luo and Cheat Grace,

The plagiarism on Willow Creek's resource is testified by a few of those who were there. I have an entire class who attended that service that morning in 2008 to testify to the truthfulness of this account.

The Global Leadership Summit DVD that Derek Dunn plagiarised from and claimed it as God's revelation to him is the one by Wayne Cordeiro.

Thank you for your concern.

Cheat Grace, how do you feel now? Your works have been recognized in the public. Any thoughts that you learned from this whole saga? :-)

Guorong said...

I guess when we blog, we blog with responsibility...

Some keep saying others wrong, blew it to let the whole world know...seems like casting stones to me...

For your thoughts:
A family of 3 generations...all of the same faith but different denominations...

Each may differ from one another...one may dislike the other... But Hey! We're of the same family!

Any problems, disputes, arguments, we help one another to see and understand...not to blow it out to the whole world even without discuss, inform, notify the other party or even find out what the other party is thinking(you don't know how the other party is feeling and will be going thru)...

How will you want this kind of problem to be solved if it's you?

Guess what? We're of the same faith! Just different denomination and revelation of each ministry...That make us still ONE family! One in the Kingdon of Christ.

Someone said:
"Cheat Grace, how do you feel now? Your works have been recognized in the public. Any thoughts that you learned from this whole saga? "
-Is this what it's all about? Getting your works recognized at the cost of possibility of costing others ministry? i just hope that you are right in if that is what God wants you to do.

I do wonder more on what are the Non believers thinking about the whole thing...

Talking about being examples...guess we've NOT been an example handling this situation...

Is that the best way to handle and God wants you to do what you are doing and saying?!

Maybe you are right but yet also wrong at the same time...and what if the wrong outweights the right?

I guess we better dont be too sure at times...

------

Sze Zeng said...

Hi Guorong,

To be clear, I dont dislike CHC. In fact I like it as I like other churches.

As you rightly said, all are one family. I like that, and I'm for that.

When I asked Cheat Grace that question, I am not pointing to 'recognition'. The recognition is just the by-product. I think what Cheat Grace had in mind when he started his work on CHC's plagiarism was simply to alert people on the issue. I believe that after all that have happened, Cheat Grace might have hindsight which is valuable to share here.

Please don't misunderstand us that we are out to get recognition. No we are not. Cheat Grace is pointing out that CHC should give the right recognition to those they copied from. So if you want to push it, you may say that Cheat Grace is out to call the public to recognize that CHC does not recognize those they plagiarized from. Cheat Grace himself always appear as a pseudonym to avoid the attention for himself. That's of course until the mainline media revealed his identity. But that identity can be a pseudonym as well. I dont know.

reasonable said...

Guorong wrote:

"Any problems, disputes, arguments, we help one another to see and understand...not to blow it out to the whole world even without discuss, inform, notify the other party or even find out what the other party is thinking(you don't know how the other party is feeling and will be going thru)...Guess what? We're of the same faith! Just different denomination and revelation of each ministry...That make us still ONE family! One in the Kingdon of Christ."

The above sounds like promoting unfairness and injustice. So if someone in your "family" is a rapist, murderer, criminal, law-breaker (e.g. breaking copyright law), thief (e.g. stealing others intellectual property), does it mean that one should do the cover-up to hide the truth to prevent public justice being done?

So if the criminal is not part of this "family", then one would give a different treatment?


Guorong also wrote: "How will you want this kind of problem to be solved if it's you?"

A rapist, being caught and was tied up, pleaded and asked "please do not report me to the authorities and let me go... how will you want this kind of problem to be solved if it is you?"

The deeply deluded needs to wake up.

Guorong said...

Hi all,

I dont think i am talking about a cover up or to let a 'rapist' go.

If it's wrong it is still wrong...

I am just talking about a better way of handling things..

And anyways, i guess the overly defense have spoken, the people that think they are right had expressed their views...guess we are all stubborn in our own ways..

Just let not our stubbornness cost us dearly..

My last words - Blog responsibly, we are accounted for our actions and words (to God).

All the best to all our life's learning..

Steven Sim said...

"I do wonder more on what are the Non believers thinking about the whole thing..."

I don't know what the author was referring to, but if it's about a bunch of christians arguing passionately with each other about truth, I think "outsiders" will be impressed by our concern for what is true and what is right.

I would rather be concerned with what would non christians think of a boisterous church whose triumphalistic theology has made them holier-than-thou and then is revealed to be pretenders to the throne all this while. Well, so much for our witnessing for God.

May God crush our ego and organization for the true glory of his name. God have mercy...

Steven Sim

her royal highness said...

Well said Steven

reasonable said...

Hi Guorong,

You stressed so much on being "one family" (just because we are Christians) and hinted at giving special treatment to that pastor just because he is allegedly part of this "one family".

Why should there be special treatment just because he is part of this "one family"?

Since you claimed you are not talking about a cover up for his wrong-doings, then you should not complain about people exposing his wrong-doings.


Guorong said: "I am just talking about a better way of handling things.."

A better way is not to cover up his wrong-doings but to expose it, to bring it into the light. A truly repentant guy should not then complain of people exposing his wrong-doings.


Guorong wrote: "Just let not our stubbornness cost us dearly.."

Tell that to that pastor.


Guorong said: "My last words - Blog responsibly, we are accounted for our actions and words (to God)."

Yes, we are accountable to God and hence we should expose those wrong-doings. We are accountable to God and hence we should not do any cover-up.


Guorong wrote: "I do wonder more on what are the Non believers thinking about the whole thing..."

Why worry? Try to save face for what you called "one family"? The non-believers would be happy if the members of this "one family" do not cover up wrong-doings of fellow-members of this "one family" but to subject the wrong-doer to public justice, to show that this "one family" upholds fairness and justice. This is part of witnessing.

Justice comes first, and then mercy/forgiveness/grace would make sense.


Do not presume so much about who is or is not part of this "one family". And, many members of this one family would be rejected by God and many "outsiders" could be accepted by God.

Jesus according to one Gospel said: "Many will say to me on that day 'Lord, Lord, did we not PROPHESY IN YOUR NAME, AND IN YOUR NAME CAST OUT DEMONS, AND IN YOUR NAME PERFORM MANY MIRACLES? And then I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.' "
(Matt. 7.22-23)

So even if one is a pastor, (or being labeled as "apostle"), and perform many healings, prophecies and other mircales in the name of Jesus, do not be presumptuous that such a fellow is accepted by God as part of the "one family".

luo said...

Dear all
There have been repeated allegations of plagiarism within this blog as well as the national newspapers. Many, including myself have been waiting for a response from the accused but as far as I know (correct me if I am wrong) there is just a deafening silence. Forgiveness can only come with rependence. Wasn't it the Lord himself who said that 'Blessed are the poor in spirit'.

The Lord loves a broken and contrite heart that is fully aware of its own estate. Even our best work is but like filthy rag, not to mention our iniquities.

I honestly pray that all of us who profess to be Christians come to realization that 'The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked; who can know it? I the Lord search the heart, try the reins, even to give to every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings' (Jer 17:9).

As I read vast amount of materials in the blog of Sze Zeng, one cannot help but be reminded that the so called Christian church in general has strayed far far away from the true church of Jesus Christ. How it must sadden our Lord and I believe that the wrath of God will be unleased with its full fury in due time. It is time to return to the basics, to sound doctrine with integrity that is incorruptible. Truely we must humble ourselves before and almighty God and seek his forgiveness.

Hsiaoshuang said...

There is nothing new under the sun, says the Preacher in Eccle 1:9. If only those rich mega-churches send their pastors to attend my course on Copyright & Internet Research ($450 per person), they can learn how to steal other people's writing and transform the text to look like their own original.

Note: To paraphrase Jeremiah 13:23"Can an Ethiopian change the color of his skin? Can a leopard take away its spots? Neither can those pastors start doing good, for they have always done evil." What we need are some old-fashioned prophets to expose those pastors who misrepresent the name of Jesus.

wanderer said...

Hey Sze Zeng

Great to see that Bible student dare to stand up and speak out against the plagiarism act. To some it is nothing but to others especially in the academic theology world it is a heinous crime.

I remember during my uni day, the vice chancellor was told to resign despite of his great contribution.
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/07/12/1026185110145.html

I think the Pastor and some of the member in the team is trying to make a mockery out of GOD. What's wrong with citing the source? Instead claiming as a God given revelation. Have not Jesus said, " Give to Casear what due to Casear. Give to God what is due to God."

Well, is up to the CHC goer to choose between the truth or the lie.

Sze Zeng said...

Hi wanderer,

Yes, plagiarism is serious. And Kong Hee is also the President of City Harvest School of Theology. So being a president of a school, he should be aware of the seriousness of this.