Thursday, October 30, 2008

A Deeper Look At Joseph Prince’s Destined to Reign

This review restrictively concerns the philosophical and theological claims made by Joseph Prince throughout the book. By philosophical, I mean the logical framework that governs all our pursuit for reasonableness and meaning; and by theological, I mean all the resulting conclusions about God, which are broadly arrived through generations of collective understanding of the Bible within the complex yet historically discernible Christian tradition.

This exercise will be carried through chapter by chapter. Numerical ‘Caution Points’ are used to signify the various issues found within each chapter. This is to make clear what is at stake at every chapter, and hence also to highlight the issues with much clarity for the readers’ further studies.

1) On the Preface

2) On Chapter 1: Destined To Reign

3) On Chapter 3: Controversies Surrounding The Gospel of Grace

4) On Chapter 5: Is God Judging America?

5) On Chapter 7: The Gospel That Paul Preached

6) On Chapter 8: The Main Clause On The New Covenant

7) On Chapter 9: The Waterfall Of Forgiveness

8) On Chapter 13: The Gift Of No Condemnation

9) On Chapter 14: No More Consciousness of Sin

Appendix 1: Joseph Prince, Sins, and 10 Commandments


davinci said...

I amazed at your effort to review Joseph Prince 's teaching. well done!

as for me, I admit that I cant understand what he says. He speak all nonsense, messy thing, uncoherent, illogical, uneducated theologically...

I must confess too, I cant understand most of the charismatic pastor written works..why? eg:cho yonggi,benny hinn,ulf eardman and etc.. I dont think I am biased against them.

but I understand charismatic scholars, eg: Gordon Fee, M Turner, Grudem and etc...

In fact I am a charismatic christian.

Sze Zeng said...

Hi davinci,

Thank you for your comment.

Can I know which church are you from?

Please email me

Hope to correspondent with you. Blessings.

Patrick said...

So often, preachers like Joseph Prince get away by stating that "God has spoken to me." He proclaims it is from God and hence indirectly claims special "annointings". This is backed up with shallow theology which often ignores the plain meaning of the text. Scriptures are contorted to suit his own theology and the "too difficult ones" are either avoided or done away with.

Thank you for your reviews. My challenge to Joseph Prince or his followers is to rebuttal your comments. Only with open and ready discussion of his theology can we move ahead in Christianity to expose what is right and what is wrong.

Sze Zeng said...

Hi Patrick,

Thank you for your comments. Yes, I agree with you that we have to discuss his teachings and find out what he really means, not only just to find fault but also to appreciate what he has to teach us. I, personally, has been taught by his book.


Nikki said...

i am currently doing a course with my church and they have asked us to read the book.
i haven't gotten far. the first page of chapter 1 and i already am struggling. it seems a little biblically unsound to me.
God calls each person to live a life/destiny he has planned. for some that may mean poverty.
anyway, i look forward to reading your notes more. thankyou for taking the time to post these.

Sze Zeng said...

Hi Nikki,

Can you drop me an email? We can talk more about this.

Look forward to your email. :)

Clinton Shane Wright said...

Dear All,

I give you the answer to you all your comments, some of you say he talks absolute nonsense and some of you say you cannot understand his teachings, his teachings are not his own but rather the The Holy Ghost's. The comforter and the teacher. Prince sits with Jesus to hear and learn from Him all the things man cannot know or understand (others truly saved hear from God and are taught by God, not man, all those taught by God learn the same thing from the Most Excellent Teacher, The Holy Ghost) and only those who have the Spirit can understand and discern the things of God, not mans carnal mind, you cannot study God's Word as you study Human Subjects and be qualified by a system made by man. No. God is the teacher of His own Word and the certifier of those who are certified to preach. Not man or any of his systems.

This is the scripture for you all:
1 Corinthians 2:14

A person who isn't spiritual doesn't accept the things of God's Spirit, for they are nonsense to him. He can't understand them because they are spiritually evaluated.

Hence, "My Sheep Hear My Voice".

I invite you to read the entire 1 Corinthians Chapter 2 and see why you cannot understand the things that Joseph Prince preaches. The things he preaches gels with the Spirit in me, I am saved by the Grace of God, I am not worthy to be his servant, but thanks to Jesus I am made worthy and therefore I am able to say these things to you. Not because I am anything but that you too may know the Grace of God. Your problem is what you believe. Open your hearts as children to the Gospel of Grace. The Gospel of Jesus Christ. Though your mind may not understand, this is a good thing, believe God and let Him teach you. How can your carnal mind understand the things of God. Read 1 Corinthians 2. It cannot. Impossible. Make sure you are reborn and if you are that means you will have the Spirit of God in you, and you will know when He is there if you are saved, why? because you wont be able to make any mistake about it. Just dont be fooled. So once you sure, come on make really sure, that you are saved, then open your bible and start reading and God will teach you the same things from the Word. He will teach and reveal to you things about His Son. Really guys, Prince preaches The Truth. Look as His ministry, Flourishing!!!! Bllooming!!!

Think what you must about this man, this man has been faithful to give the raw truth of the bible to the world. God is accomplishing an amazing work through Joseph Prince.

reasonable said...

deep delusion! deeply deluded!

Clinton Shane Wright said...

Hey Reasonable, please explain what you mean by delusional. Please be more specific about you think that I or someone else on this Blog said that you call delusional. I know the God who saved me is not delusional. So lets clear this up with scriptures.

God bless all,


Noise said...

Pastor Prince teaches a lot of other things like "the Holy Spirit never convicts us of sin", "guilt is bad" and "we only have to repent once" He doesn't seem to recognise the need to confess sins that we commit throughout our Christian walk. What do you guys feel about such statements?

Sze Zeng said...

Hi Noise,

I find that statement that we need only to confess and repent once as nothing unusual. Constance repentance was practiced in the early church (if not the story of Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5 wouldn't make sense).

I was having a conversation with a friend at McD two months ago. This topic came up.

I told my friend that the difference lies in the intention of these two differing opinions:

1) Groups like NCC says that we don't need to keep on repenting to help individuals to move on with their life instead of being paralyzed by their mistaken past.

2) Other groups says that we need to keep repenting to emphasize the severity of sin (to keep individuals aware of the realness of temptation and the easiness to fall into it) and the need for individuals to always humbly rely on God's grace for empowerment. The church has to constantly bring itself to humility through repentance to avoid triumphalism.

I think both groups have different understanding of the meaning of 'repentance'. Groups like NCC think that 'repentance' as an act (like taking marriage vow), while others think that it is a process (couples that constantly remind themselves of their marriage vow and occasionally renew it from time to time to keep the marriage strong).

So it depends on your own view of 'repentance'. Do you think that it is an act or a process?

glen said...

Hi Sze Zeng.

i believe JP meant that you only need to repent once, because Jesus's death on the cross definitely cleansed us of all our sins.. once and for all. because even the sacrifice of Bulls on the feast of atonement can cleanse a person's sin for a year. why do we. now that Christ died for us needs to keep repenting of our sins since Christ's finished work is much greater than that of bulls.

but if you talked about a process. i believe JP will rather you be reminded of His love for us, His death and finished work on the cross and His grace that motivates us to sin no more. rather than to be reminded and be condemned of the sins in us while we keep repenting of them.

to not aid the job of "the accuser" in reminding us of our sins. which actually has been fully covered and taken away by Christ's finished work on the cross.

Because Christ's work on the cross is definitely much greater than that of the work of the first adam, whose action brought death. if we are always repenting of the sin in us, which are already forgiven at the cross, ain't we diminishing the work that Christ has done for us? to say that Adam who brought sin is greater that Christ who took away our sins?

Anthea said...

Judas continues to reign, continues to live a lavish heaven-like lifestyle -- thanks to his supporters!
All of you continues to argue about your understanding of the bible. Do you think he cares?

Anthea said...

I hope all NCC zombies ask themselves honestly whether they go to Church to worship God or JP? Whether they are obedience to Christ or obedience to their church and pastor? Did their pastor shower them with abundant GRACE to blur their viewpoint?

Bertrand said...

Clinton Shane Wright's July 6th post is an attempt to enshrine a pastor in a foolproof system of infallibility:

1. All you guys think Joseph Prince is talking nonsense.

2. That's because your mind is carnal and you cannot discern the spiritual things he is teaching.

3. Obviously he is getting his spiritual info at the lap of Jesus.

4. I know this because his congregation is big and his church is wealthy.

5. I also know this because his teaching 'gels with the Spirit' in me, and I am thus also sitting with Jesus and I can see you all are not, hence I am in a moral position to say everyone who disagrees with Joseph also disagrees with me and is thus simply carnal minded.

Fortunately for the rest of us who are not so burdened with such thick scales over our eyes, Wright's post is so laden with epistemic problems that it can be safely ignored.

A couple of questions for Wright:

What if Joseph makes a mistake in his preaching? Can't you see that your mode of thought absolves him of all error, even if he does make mistakes?

There has got to be some way to check whether or not a pastor is teaching nonsense. In fact, rational Christians think there are many. For instance, one way is to check whether what a pastor is saying is consistent with what the bible is saying, based on the assumption that the Bible itself is coherent; another is to see if the preacher is consistent with his own earlier teaching.

Checking for coherence requires some basic skill in logic, and far from being carnal, Christians believe that logic is a gift. It enables us to run our lives, discern for truthfulness in statements, and even grasp some biblical truth. To brand logical thinking as 'carnal' simply because it is present in the world, or in non-christians, is an extreme form of Manichaeism.

Unfortunately, if one rejects everything that is of the world as being 'carnal', one cannot read the Bible because it is made of worldy pulp, printed with worldly ink, translated into worldly languages arranged in worldly grammar and syntax. One cannot also trust the contents of any sermon because the logic required to process words and sentence structure is carnal.

If one, however, affirms logic as a fundamental tool to human understanding, even understanding of language and thus biblical verses, then one has to admit that the same tool of logic can be used to check if what a pastor says is nonsensical or not.

Hiding a pastor behind a veil of 'oh, the teaching doesn't make sense after comparison with Scripture? Ah, that's because your mind is carnal while the Pastor is teaching directly from the Holy Spirit' is irresponsible and dangerous. It enables pastors to say anything they want and get away with it, simply claiming they heard it from God. At the very least, it misuses God's name. Let me relate you an example:

Benny Hinn once publicly taught that God is a Trinity, and that each of the Trinity is also a Trinity, so God is nine-in-one. This drew immense criticism from Christians across all denominations and he has since retracted this teaching. When I related this information to a Benny Hinn supporter, she quickly retorted that Hinn probably had 'some kind of direct revelation from God.'

I hope you can see where I am going with this.

Stephen said...

I am saddened by the fact that pastors like JP are cheapening Grace. I've friends from his church who told me "once saved, forever saved", "God forgives all your past, present and future sins", "Oh, you don't have to feel bad about missing church service because you overslept". It seems like there's a false movement going on, and I'm concerned about such groups of people in the last days. Will they stand up to the test put forth by the anti-christ and his temptations/persecutions?

Anybody feels the same as I do?

Stephen said...

I love what you wrote! I hope every NCC people can read and seriously ponder over your analysis.

Stephen said...

Sze Zeng, do you have a fb that we can be connected? Can you give me your fb ac at I'm interested at your intellectual yet objective dissection of controversies vs truth.

Wendy Lam said...

Focusing on sin makes it tough to focus on Jesus. One looks inward, the other looks upward ( or like one of my pastors, sideward because thats where he likes Jesus is).

Looking inward is self focused. Looking upward, you are often at the end of self and asking Jesus for our daily bread.

To know the breadth, the heights, the depths of his love for me is humbling.

Most of us Christians are the Marthas and Marys ... We have simple lives, simple aspirations and all we want in our walk is simply to know the Lord, to understand his will and to lean on his strength for the trials and our season of valleys.

Do we sin ? What are my count of sins ? I like Balenciaga bags, I lie once in a while to stop sales agents from harassing me, I selfishly let my mum do most of the housework as I surf the net.... I am guilty of not spending time with God but this is my guilt speaking, Jesus didnt pin sin on this.

Pastor Joseph Prince simply gave Christians like me the milieu to enjoy my Jesus without hard pharisees pinning me down on my dress or focusing on the things which are not important.

Theology without Jesus is useless. Calvinism, antinomianism, whatever...

I understand Jesus's death and his finished work...I am experiencing and learning about his love every week. I am upward looking and frankly, looking at my list of sins...since I sat with JP at New Creation 6 years ago, its getting less and less frequent.

We have a brother who was NOT forbiddden to smoke but was reminded he can get to heaven much earlier than he wanted...who confess the word of God over his addiction as he smokes... And viola, woke up one day to find the addiction gone.

Its very hurtful to experience all the persecutions we are experiencing but going by the miracles and testimonies of healing, restoration, including astounding growth ( which my friends think is due to the prosperity message and I dont)... You can check out the testimonies on Joseph Prince Ministeries which is chock full from all over the world....God must think we are doing something right.

Wendy Lam said...

What is Christianity like for the Marthas and Marys of this world ?

All I long for is a milieu to seat at Jesus feet, appreciate his love for me, to follow where he leads and lean on his strength when I am going to meet my giants and walk my valleys.

My count of sins was a lot longer before I joined New Creation, where am I?

Very occasionally, I am selfish and let my mom do too much housework. Occasionally, I lied to sales people to get out of buying stuff I dont really want to buy.. once in a while I have vile thoughts especially when a car cuts into my lane dangerously....once in a long time, I may be tempted carnally ...but Joseph Prince taught us thatnwith such temptations, its best to flee as Joseph did with Portiphars wife and to practise wisdom in our dealings with the opposite sex.

I dont think Id like to focus on my sins much...Pastor Prince taught that it is too inward and self looking. We focus on Jesus and depending on where you discern him, he is either beside you or above you.

I much like this posture. No other church has given me a
yoke as light as the one Jesus promised. Its at NCC that I am beginning to experience the depths the heights the widths of Gods love....this is why people come to NCC.

Lots of people like to pin the reason down to the health and prosperity we preach but hey, I know that many DO NOT.

Why must we make our relationship with our God and
Jesus so complicated. I read the New Testament and I didnt see Jesus telling Zaccheus or give up his monies...I see Jesus loving and giving grace and the impact is Zaccheus having the strength and commitment to compensate and reconcile. Thisnis what Joseph Prince has been preaching...not license to sin but that grace has the power to so where law or rebukes fail

To give Joseph Prince a fair hearing, check out Joseph Prince Ministeries Praise Reports ...I have never come across so many in any other websites. All over the world.

See what the Lord his done through him...the fruits born in lives all over the world.

God must think he is doing something right or those miracles and new birth of faith wouldnt be happening

Sze Zeng said...

Hi Wendy,

Thank you for sharing about your impression of Ps Prince. I'm glad that he has such a positive impact to your life. That helps us to know him better :)

reasonable said...

Hi Wendy,

You wrote: "God must think he is doing something right or those miracles and new birth of faith wouldnt be happening"

1. JP & other person could still be performing miracles in the name of Jesus even when they are doing something wrong. In the Gospel of Matthew, many were doing miracles in the name of Jesus and they called Jesus their Lord, but many of them were rejected by Jesus. Many of these people who were casting out demons in Jesus' name, prophesied in Jesus' name and did many other miracles were cast away by Jesus. (see Matt 7.21-23)

Lesson: Ability to perform miracles in Jesus' name does not mean that those miracle workers are not wrong and it does not mean that God accepts them.

2. By the way, a church being able to grow in large numbers of members does not mean that it is a blessing from God. In fact, if you are in the company of a great number of people, be very careful. For MANY are those who would walk on the broad way and enter the wide gate that leads to destruction (see Matt 7.13-14) and FEW are those who managed to walk on the narrow way that leads to the narrow gate to life. Matthew's Jesus' said: "For the gate is small, and the way is narrow that leads to life, and FEW are those who find it." "The gate is wide, and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and MANY are those who enter by it."

Quote from John Wesley: "If MANY go with you, as sure as God is true, both they and you are going to hell! If you are walking as the generality of men walk (I elaborate: e.g. if u are seeking wealth like what the generality of people seek), you are walking to the bottomless pit! Are many wise, many rich, many mighty, or noble travelling with you in the same way? By this token, without going any farther, you know it does not lead to life."

Wendy Lam said...

Sze zeng, I sincerely believe this is how Jesus wants his gospel, the GOOD news of no condemnation, is preached.

Jesus told Peter to feed his sheep. He loves us so much that even after resurrection, we are in his mind... but so many preachers end up beating Jesus's sheep .. by focusing in what they did wrong and not what they did right.

I studied 10 yrs in a mission school, I spent 3 years serving a campus outreach ministry, I studied 7 years at a bible program ... But knowing God and experiencing God is a world of difference.

Love IS God and its only when we have his love and more than knowing it, can EMBRACE its fullness that we have
the strength to overcome our sins, our temptations and the troubles of this world.

Debating Christianity leads no where ... Experiencing Christianity and its fullness with changed lives - this is the TRUE REPENTANCE

Your blog and your thoughts are followed. So when you do have time, can kindly have a look what is happening with JPM's ministry ? You can tell its not worshipping JP but simply appreciating him the way we would appreciate a leader... I appeciate John Wesley lots too...


Sze Zeng said...

Hi Wendy,

I believe your comment is more specifically directed to 'reasonable' who commented on your comment.

I sincerely believe that you and many others are impacted by Ps Prince's ministry. In cases where genuine change in lives, I really felt encouraged by him too.

So I do think that Ps Prince's works have their fruits and I don't deny this. :-)

Wendy Lam said...

Hi Reasonable..

I know that part of the bible and I understand where your concerns are. I am on my guard against that.

Many years ago, when my sis wanted to go NCC, I went along and couldnt even seat through the service ... i think JP was sprouting lots of nonsence.

But her life really changed....rebellious kid who kept getting into trouble and unsuccessful in so many areas of her life.

My mum who strangely persecuted my sis Christian faith and is of another faith also saw that change. Over the course of the next 3-4 years, she saw so much that she inwardly was drawn to Christ. She finally shocked us by telling us she wants to go to church.

I brought her to my traditional one and she was not impacted. So no choice, I didnt want to lose this precious go at salvation for my mum after praying so hard for decades.

So I asked my cellgroup at the traditonal church to bear with me while I chauffeur mom and sis to "that" church for a couple of months. When mom settles in, I will be back.

Mom loved NCC and 1 year later, she eagerly sought baptism. She is now a huge impact in her office.

As you may have guessed, I never got back. I still meet to bless my former cellgroup mates once a while but have settled down at NCC. I longed soooo muchnto know God's love. As Paul exhorted, to know the heights and depths and widths and strength of it. Joseph Prince showed it to me.

He gave me the message that made me LOVE God...not just know the bible and God....but to experience God.

We read a tree by its fruits...these fruits arent just about magic or instantaneous healing or exorcism like the chapter you mentioned.

If you dont mind a little time spent, can kindly visit this site and see what I mean ? Thank you in advance.

Jesus is our vine, we are his branches. When you taste the grapes and know it is good, you will know the source.

NCC members arent Joseph Prince fans though we LOVE him dearly and am super proud of him. NCC members all have broken bits which were patched by Jesus through his grace. We experience it because one guy dared to preach it so radically that he was accused of antinomianism. But before we point fingers at JP, we must remember St Paul in his time was also accused of the same charge.

2000 years later, a lot of people are accusing JP without giving him full benefit of doubt or a fair hearing (at least I gave 4 months).

If he is cult leader, thats fine. But if we persecute and persecute without proper investigation... Then it turned out we are wrong...its terribly un-Christianly isnt it.

How to face Jesus if JP is indeed following Jesus's directive and that the GOOD news indeed is as easy as such.

reasonable said...

Hi Wendy, do you agree or disagree that miracles can happen even when the miracle worker is not approved by God?

Do you agree that when miracles take place in a church, it does not necessarily mean that the pastor or the church is endorsed/approved/accepted by God?

My original comment was mainly to focus on this logic of yours:

Miracles happening & lives changed, and therefore God MUST think that JP is doing something right. (this is your logic)

I am pointing out that this logic of yours appears to be wrong according to Gospel of Matthew's version of Jesus. According to the Matthew's Jesus, miracles can happen even when JP is doing something wrong.

According to Jesus in Matthew, miracles can happen even though God does not approve of the miracles worker.

According to you, miracles happen MUST means the miracle workers must be doing something right.

But even Pharaoh's magicians can perform miracles even though in the end their miracles were not as powerful as Moses (according to the story in Exodus).

So, do you agree or disagree that miracles can happen even when the miracle worker is not approved by God?


Next, you talked about changed lives and implied that since lives are changed, therefore that ministry and its teachings are approved by God.

But there are countless examples of people of other religions who experienced a transformed life after joining those religions. For example, there is currently a case of a drug trafficker whose life has been transformed after he was converted to become a Buddhist. Does that necessarily mean Buddhism is the true teachings endorsed by God?

Do you disagree that when a person join an organisation/ministry/religion which resulted in a positive transformation of that person's life, it does not necessarily mean that the teachings of that organisation/ministr/religion is correct?



Wendy Lam said...

Hi Reasonable

I think God puts into this universe many things that my dad's religion at the Soka Gakkai calls laws of the universe which they meditate over.

The Chinese have put these observations into our teachings : the law of cause and effect, the reaping of what you sow ...

Read proverbs and we are taught many wisdoms that are
so useful in guiding us in everyday lives. Written mostly by a guy who has degenerated and left the faith after too many heathen wives but nevertheless still loved by God.

Lots of people see Jesus as a really wise guru, a prophet a revolutionary.

I see Jesus as my Savior. I believe that the thorns on his head was suffered for our repentance.

I believe the stripes on his body and his total disfigurement was suffered that I may have health and zoe life. I believe that the blood and the water that came from his pierced side redeemed the cursed ground that Adam through his fall brought onto us.

I believe that the soured wine Jesus drank was to redeem us from generational curses. Jeremiah 31 "the fathers eat sour grapes and the childrens teeth are set on edge". These days will be no more when the new covenant comes.

Jesus said that foxes have holes and birds of the air have lodging places but the son of man has no where to lay his head. On the cross, when he majestically dismissed his spirit, he finally bowed his head. I see Jesus entering his rest and his work is FINISHED once and for all.

I believe in the holy trinity of Father Son and Holy Ghost. I believe that God is good and everloving.

I dont deny that we have heard of miracles from other faiths and also wonderful stories of transformed lives.

But what happens in other faiths, I dont know nor care. I am a Jesus believer.

What I do know is this : Mark 3 : 23 - 26 As Jesus countered the accusations that he is from the devil, he says - how can the devil drive out the devil ?

If a preacher point to Jesus and points his flock to Jesus... If the fruits of that ministry is good and the vine points to Jesus as a source... If lives are changed and there is genuine pursuit of living a life flowing with the spirit.

Why bother if the church is mega, if its people are willing to tithe 10%, if they raise $250 mil to build a gathering place and didnt stop there but are still giving towards charity and ministries. If the Pastor has a hairstyle you hate...In the kingdom of God, there is no sin in these. Only prejudices and differences in opinion.

Drill it down to what really matters, we are Christians all walking in faith and trying to live heaven on earth. This is
not easy as Satan will definitely not leave the faithful alone but attack us from every corner. So as fellow brothers and sisters, why hurt and hurl stones some more. Differences in interpretation of the bible occurs as each is led differently...values and judgements differ as we are all made differerently.

The unifier for a lot of churches is the Nicene creed which we also abide by.

We may very well be neighbours up in heaven one day and on that day, we look at all the bickerings and differences, it doesnt matter anymore.

reasonable said...

quote: "I dont deny that we have heard of miracles from other faiths and also wonderful stories of transformed lives."

Great. Glad that you can begin to see these two points:

1. when a person (e.g. JP) or an organisation/ministry performs miracles, it does not necessarily mean that God approves of that person or that ministry/organisation.

2. when members' lives are transformed positively in an organisation, it does not necessarily mean that the teachings of that organisation is correct and it does not mean that God approves of that organisation.

the witness said...

this is what I learn from Pastor JP, It is not about his way of preaching but that of the power of God in Him that gives authority in what JP utters in his message. I learn from God not of JP(person). If Christ is not of him his church will go down, Resting my life on the love of God lifted me from that pit of "self seekers" trying to please God of our own. I always end up loosing the battle.. with JP sermons about grace, nobody talks like that of Grace of God, not of my own but of His finished work that I received salvation.
If JP is blind, He cannot lead me, but my eyes were opened, once I was blind but now I see... JP is a preacher of JESUS, JP speaks of Jesus more rather than any other preachers, as the Father said, "This is my Beloved Son, To Whom I Am Well Pleased" That is why God is pleased with JP because of His Son and also to us whose salvation is of Christ not of our own.
If the preachers of God would only speak of JESUS more, the Body of Christ will be united, disregarding some petty differences in teaching and doctrines, what is important is Jesus as our savior, our Lord, Our God! Can anyone know all of God's plan? Only the Son knows of His Father... How arrogant others criticize while they think they know the heart of God, talking negative always is not of God, that is why the devil is rejoicing when he sees the people of God battle and debate on what they know as if they know something, It is all foolishness to God..
people of God unite in the name of Jesus in which He had called us...
There is only One name and one man where God is pleased... He is Jesus!

reasonable said...

To The Witness, who said that "How arrogant others criticize while they think they know the heart of God"

1. Apparently you too are criticizing others, presumably you think you know the heart of God?

2. Who are the ones here who said they know the heart of God?

3. Does one need to know the heart of God in order to criticize or to give a critique of wrong logics shared by certain supporters of JP?

Next, you said that " talking negative ALWAYS is not of God"

1. What do you mean by "talking negative"?

2. St Paul has "talked negatively" various times in his letters; since as you claimed, talking negative ALWAYS is not of God, that means, according to you logic St Paul is not of God. Correct?

Hope you see the lack of proper reasoning in your statements.

Cheers! :)

, talking negative always is not of God,

MDT said...

Praise be to Jesus for Joseph Prince. He is bringing people back to the cross.
My parents and grandparents are missionaries, although the only boast I really have is in Jesus' love for me. What Joseph Prince preaches is the real deal. Abundant life with Jesus. If you want to experience God in the way of George Muller, AW Tozer or Watchman Nee- listen to Joseph Prince. Jesus upset a lot of religious people in His day. Praise be to God that Joseph is doing the same, as he leads us back to the simplicity, beauty and grace of the cross.

Dunamis101 said...

Sorry reasonable, but the overall context of Matt 7:21-23 is man trying to justify relationship with the Lord by works. They point to what they did or do for God rather than what Jesus has done for them. The will of the father in Peter's Epistle is that no one perish. The bible explains itself quite beautifully. Some might ask, "How do we go about not perishing?". John 3:16.... God Bless You All!

reasonable said...

Hi Dunamis101,

You have just done an eisegesis, reading a 16th century Lutheran doctrine onto Matt 7.21-23. Exegesis 101 may help to deal with that problem.

The immediate context of those passages is Jesus exhorting people to take ACTION. ("to those who hear these words of mine but do not ACT UPON them would be like building a house on sand...when the storm comes..." "not everyone who calls me Lord Lord will enter heaven but he who DOES the will of my father..."). The wider context (starting from chapter 5) is Jesus telling them in details what they need to do and how they ought to behave. The last part in chapter 7 closes off those instructions by warning them the consequences if they do not TAKE ACTION.

Within these context, we see Jesus' warning that performing miracles in Jesus' name is not a sign that they would be accepted by God; in fact, many such people who could perform miracles in Jesus' names would find, to their surprise or shock, that they would be rejected by Jesus.

My point is: your preacher's ability to perform miracles is not a sign that he is accepted by God as shown by Matthew's Jesus' saying. I pointed out this to correct Wendy who seemed to think that JP's miracles are a sign of her pastor doing something right before God. She said that "God must think he is doing something right or those miracles and new birth of faith wouldnt be happening".

She was obviously wrong.


Aliw said...

Perhaps that is why it is so hard for us to believe God in our hearts even we say it in our mouth because we level Him with us. When Jesus said it is finished , then it is. We are making it too complicated and hard to accept the grace that God is giving us. That is what Joseph Prince is teaching. It is for us to accept it or not. It will make you love Him more if you will believe what He said as it is. He paid the price for our sins. For someone who said about Joseph Prince saying God told him...if you have never experience hearing the voice of God in your heart then it is really hard to accept...however, God really speaks to His children even now...

strongerthanseasons said...

thanks so much for posting this, mr Sze Zeng. I was once a 'fan' of JP's ministry. But now I am assessing it in the light of the Scriptures. I was deceived! I need a community who is much aware of his teachings yet equipped to deal with them. Hope to connect with you. Thanks!

Roseann said...

Well, I've never read the book but I feel that being christian is to worship and believe God in your own way. The way Ps Prince is preaching is merely the way God talks to him. Ever since I became a christian, things are never the same for me. I had divine protection and God did speak to me. I go to church to listen to God's word. That is because I want to know more about what God has planned for me in his life.

God spoke to me in miraculous ways. As long as I asked a question, he will speak to me in a way that will solve my question and my doubt.

Jesus has died for me. God gave his only beloved son to died (John 3:16) God as a father can sacrifice so much for us. Won't it pain him if we were to condemn ourselves just like some people pain their mortal parents by hurting themselves.

God sacrificed his only son so that we can be free and be happy. Jesus and God can be so kind to us who sin so much, we being christians, believers, shouldn't we do the same and be kind to others.

Grace is undeserved favour.

God wasn't obliged to give his only son to free us from our sins. But the point is, God gave his only son even when he didn't need to.

If we're such sinners, then we don't deserved to be treated so kindly right? But we were treated kindly "For God SO LOVE THE WORLD, that he gave his only begotten son..."

God showed grace to us, shouldn't we learn to be like God and Jesus and show grace to other people?

God Bless. Show Grace and touch lives :)

Andrew Chapman said...

In Chapter 8 of Destined to Reign, Joseph Prince consigns Jesus's teaching to the dustbin, effectively. He steers new believers in Jesus away from Jesus's own teachings. This makes him more than a Christian heretic - as an opponent of the Lord Jesus Christ, it would be better to describe him as an antichrist teacher, so far as I can see.

As for those who say that he is being taught personally of the Lord, do you not know that there are demons who teach doctrine? All doctrine has to be tested against the word of God.

Blessings, Andrew

rexwriter said...

I am following this discussion closely, because Everyone brings out interesting opinions on the book. I have not read JPs books, (I am planning to) but I have followed his summons on you tube. Everything he preaches appears to be backed up by the scriptures. I believe there is so much we can learn from the grace teachings

Daiinah Kamei said...

I have already started to believe all his taeachings but after I read all your comments something strike my mind.. like did JP preach the wrong gospel?? all nonsense what he was preaching???
but I have decided to keep on listening to his messages because I was a drug-abused person and now I am not with the help of His grace messages..

God bless you all!

Johnie Lee said...

J Prince is another Word Faith movement agent bent on introducing heresies in churches. His aim to sucker people to give him $$$$$ for his pleads of donations, selling of books and audio cds - fake medicines.

He is a heretical teacher follower of Kenneth Hagin and Benny Hinn both part of Cho Yonggi group of International churches whose aim is to distort Holy Scriptures.

Beware or be tricked into a false belief.

Johnie Lee said...

People who should not just read a book and not know the backgrounds and beliefs of these fakes. See

Word Faith movements are such group of people with dubious backgrounds can write books, sell audio cds and dvds to sell their wares to unsuspecting readers and even the naive young christians are fooled.

Use the Bible and better Bible Commentaries to gauge these quacks!

Joseph Prince*, Benny Hinn, deceased Kenneth Hagin, Kong Hee*, Cho Yonngi are names mentioned in links above. Guess what they are all the same false teachers.

Some even declare themselves as prophets!

Jesus work of salvation is done and no more need of sending of false gospels.

They invent fables under the guise of Prosperity, Health and Wealth gospels, Radical Grace, Holy Laughter, Gold-filed teeth miracles, back from the dead miracles etc ....

All are fakes at work. People should ask themselves - The bible is the only source of God's Truth not human-made stories.